Comments on The Virginian Federalist: General Assembly Analysis: Licensing the Locksmith...

Another Junk site with bad info, the link at the t...

2008-02-28T11:12:12.004-05:00

Another Junk site with bad info, the link at the top of the page is to the very first Bill, that Bill was rewritten 2 more times and is not what just passed the House & the Senate and is on its way to the Governor. Please update the site. Maybe if you read the correct Bill you might know what you are talking about.
The Real Lock Man

If I am charged $1000 or even $50.01 on my credit ...

2008-02-22T15:00:12.901-05:00

If I am charged $1000 or even $50.01 on my credit card for a $50 bill, you can bet I will challange it and let the credit card company deal with the merchants account.

If someone tells me $50 then when they get done, they say oops, now it is $1000, I will hand them $50 and thank them for their time.

I certainly would not like it. Why not prosecute ...

2008-02-22T09:55:05.542-05:00

I certainly would not like it. Why not prosecute the crooks. I fail to see why that could not solve the problem. If you get charged $1,000 for a $50 job, that is fraud; it’s illegal. The State should throw them in the slammer, and citizens should sue their pants off.

Why punish the good guys?

I think a private licensing might be good. You can advertise you are licensed by Locksmiths of America or something like that. Out of curiosity, are you licensed by the state or a private organization?

Please do a search of "Priceline locksmiths" and "...

2008-02-22T09:18:54.503-05:00

Please do a search of "Priceline locksmiths" and "dependable locksmith" Their business model of ripping off customers is so wide spread, the first 50 google hits probably deal with them.

these are nation wide SCAMMERS that ARE a problem, not "the g'ment has found a non regulated industry and just want to regulate them"

How would you feel if the $50 lockout that you were quoted got charged $1,000 to your credit card?

This article was poorly written and researched.

Signed- A LICENSED Locksmith in NC.

It's going to be around $500.00 per year for the f...

2008-02-20T21:26:07.495-05:00

It's going to be around $500.00 per year for the first two years then it will only be around $300.00per year in Virginia. All other States that have licensing the cost runs between 250 to 500 per year. So we are in line with every state with a license.

So where is the justification of the cost? Why sho...

2008-02-20T18:51:51.858-05:00

So where is the justification of the cost? Why should it have to cost $1100.00 for such a license? Don't other states have licenses that cost a lot less?

What distinguishes lawyers and doctors from locksm...

2008-02-20T10:21:15.031-05:00

What distinguishes lawyers and doctors from locksmiths, thereby exempting the mandatory licensing of lawyers and doctors from your anti-licensure ire?

The PUBLIC comes first.I enjoyed reading everyone’...

2008-02-20T10:15:07.506-05:00

The PUBLIC comes first.

I enjoyed reading everyone’s opinions. My question is simple
have you seen the 2008 Phone books with 1000's of phony locksmiths listed, in Richmond, Tidewater, Northern Virginia?? I guess not. Do you care??

This is happening all over America, Many States are passing Laws just to deal with the Phony Locksmith. Richmond has 40 or so Real Virginia Locksmith Companies. If you look in the 2008 Verizon book you will find 1000’s of Companies listed, the other 1000 companies are really one company in New York. Their employees are from other countries, here on work Visa’s, taught only how to use a drill and rip off the Public.

The Phony untrained scam artists are preying on our citizen’s everyday, with 50.00 Dollar quotes that turn into $200.00 to $500.00 or more before the crooks leave your house with your money and maybe a copy of your key. Will he return if there is something in the house or business that he liked??? How about the business that is missing some cash in the morning? No signs of a break in, SOMEBODY is getting fired and maybe prosecuted for theft. The business owner does not even remember the locksmith, with no background check or finger printing came to the business 4 or 5 weeks ago and kept a key. If they do then they try to call the Locksmith back and you get someone in New York who has no record of doing any work for you.

The Bill was introduced by hundreds of concerned Locksmiths to protect the public from being ripped off. That is why it got overwhelming support in the House 92 to 7. It was not written to protect the Locksmith or create a monopoly for the Locksmith to be the only ones to be able to Cut Keys and Open Cars like some want it to read. The PUBLIC comes first.

Most of the people in the Commonwealth of Virginia believe that Locksmiths have always had to pass a background Check and Fingerprinting to be Locksmiths. I know that most of the Delegates believed that. My Lawyer believed that when I told him.

The Locksmith Bill states you can not advertise that you are a Locksmith unless you have a Locksmith Business License, Pass a Background and Fingerprint Check. How much business will the Phony Locksmiths get if he can not advertise???

DCSJ now aware of the problem and they feel that they can stop the Phony Locksmiths with the language that is in the Bill.

As for the fees, the Bill will not take any money from the General Fund as it is revenue neutral. The fees come out to around $1.50 per day for the Locksmith Company. A very manageable fee for a Locksmith business.

Just for the sake of accuracy, a locksmith with no...

2008-02-20T02:24:37.871-05:00

Just for the sake of accuracy, a locksmith with no employees, under this bill would be required to pay

$800 for the initial business license that covers the first 2 years then goes down to $600 every 2 years. However, one of the requirements of the license is to have a Compliance Agent on staff, this costs another $200 .. the registration for the locksmith not counting whatever the classes cost, would be about $50

Looking at $1100 the first year, and even as nice as most locksmiths are I doubt any of them will willingly eat such a cost, so customers, will have to bear the brunt of that cost, as the locksmith will have to pass that on as higher costs.

This is a bad license and a poorly written bill, it will unfairly burden smaller locksmiths in order to reduce competition for the larger ones.

Call your senator and beg him to vote against it!

Proposed bill HB462 concerning Locksmith Licensing...

2008-02-20T02:06:53.000-05:00

Proposed bill HB462 concerning Locksmith Licensing concerns all Virginians and is riddled with exception entries that are completely self destructive to the purpose of licensing the Locksmith. If you view the Virginia Code 54.1-100, (Regulations of professions and occupations), and Virginia Code 9.1-197 (Exemptions), you can see that the majority of exemptions included make the effort empty of value to the idea of Licensing. If these exceptions included a prerequisite that they have a Licensed Locksmith on their payroll, it would make more sense. There is no reason any business other than Government entities should be practicing the Locksmith Profession without a Licensed Professional Locksmith on their payroll.
There were other added contributions from representatives of The Virginia Locksmith Association that were completely ignored through writing process. This has the appearance of possible special interests.
Licensing is about insuring the publics' ability to obtain services from the proper professional for the services they are in need of.
Under Virginia Code 54.1-100,
2. The practice of the profession or occupation has inherent qualities peculiar to it that distinguish it from ordinary work and labor;
3. The practice of the profession or occupation requires specialized skill or training and the public needs, and will benefit by, assurances of initial and continuing professional and occupational ability

Locksmithing in fact takes some serious skill and training to properly insure the safety and security of the consumer. A Certified Master Locksmith has gone through rigorous training to achieve the Certification that offers the inherent qualities peculiar to the profession that distinguishes it from other trades. The Associated Locksmiths of America has been offering this Certification training to the field for about twenty years.
The HB462 proposal as is, allows just about everyone exemption. Taxi drivers, Walmart, Lowes, Every contractor with any kind of License, car salesmen, etc., to perform very serious breaches in security as long as it's in the "scope" of their everyday business and or they just don’t call themselves a Locksmith. A Tow Truck Operator is a Tow Truck Operator and not a Locksmith. They open doors to automobiles bypassing the lock through the window or door frame as their only means of entry. There are other ways and safer ways to enter that they are unaware of because of their limited training. Their job description explains where their expertise lies. It’s not Locksmithing. It seems even the handyman has no boundaries with this bill as written. What's wrong with this picture?
Does an Electrical License allow an Electrician to practice the trade of Plumbing? Does a Day Care License allow the provider to perform Electrical wiring in a home or business? Does a Real Estate License allow the Agent to perform Alarm inspection or installation?
There should be few or no exemptions other than by Authorized Government Entities or Professional Entities trained in the Locksmithing field.
A legitimate emergency may require emergency means of lock bypass by a well meaning Samaritan or tow truck operator that could be exempt as long as there is no compensation for the deed. Repairs would more than likely follow to insure they are in fact safe.

Any business or contractor performing Locksmith practices should have a Licensed Locksmith on the payroll if they intend to practice the profession. No business exceptions, whether they are a gunsmith, hardware store, contractor, car salesman, auto dealership or tow truck driver without a Locksmith on their payroll. There needs to be structure for any law to have discipline it can follow. Shouldn’t exceptions be proven through the same process that proposes this very bill?

Every License has limitations and regulations specific to the business. Why doesn't HB462? There are so many contradictions and exceptions in this bill that it pretty much inhibits the whole purpose of a License. The Locksmith would be paying the Government every year for a License everyone can enjoy the benefits from, except of course, the Locksmith. The Locksmith would be the only business worried about compliance. The Locksmith is lost in the world of Exceptions and at the bottom of the list on a License that has been introduced to protect the public from THE EXEMPTED NON LOCKSMITHS. Where is the logic in that?

This bill proposal was driven by panic. There are Fictitious Business’ portraying themselves as Locksmiths advertising heavily in the Yellow Pages by the thousands. They in fact send individuals who know little about Locksmithing out to perform the work and overcharge the customer. That is a problem. This bill is a problem.

The persons responsible for putting this bill together call these fictitious scammers, criminals. The problem is they are not criminals. They were legally practicing bad business. They utilized the media of advertisement to flood the market. Scammers have been around long before Jesus, and are here to stay. Licensing especially as proposed won't even put a scratch on the problem. These fictitious businesses will just move on to naming their business as a Handyman Service, Emergency Service or go back to paving driveways and putting up roofs for the unsuspecting consumer. Marketing is a profession they are on top of. Our best defense is the scammer’s strategy. The media! Public Awareness! Consumers were unaware of these fictitious businesses because they were not prepared for the ambush of Yellow Page ads. Neither were we.
Ethics is something the Yellow Page sales force needs to look into. That is where the problem began. Allow the media to help stop bad business. The media can be more effective than begging the Government to fix everything. Public awareness is probably the biggest issue here and not solely a Licensing bill that could very well bury a Professional Trade that has in fact also been around long before hieroglyphics. It is the second oldest Professional Trade in our history that is being treated like a puerile idea.

Not A.E. Dick Howard,First of all, this discussion...

2008-02-19T19:13:18.328-05:00

Not A.E. Dick Howard,

First of all, this discussion is about locksmiths not lawyers and doctors. What is the industry standard, and shouldn’t the market set this?

There is nothing to prevent locksmiths to set up a regulatory board. They could require fees and encourage people to only hire licensed locksmiths; the certified locksmiths could use this to advertise; but the state should not use its coercive authority to arbitrarily and needlessly regulate industry.

This bill is not to keep people safe. Criminals will still break in and steal. The bottom line is that criminals should be punished not industry. This is a fairly onerous regulation. I did not explain all of the intricacies of this regulation, but it goes to entrance, advertisement, method, etc.

I don’t think you quite understood what I was saying about individuals already established in the industry supporting the regulation. This regulation puts a barrier, no matter how small, that will keep competition out. All current locksmiths will benefit from hindering new entrance into the profession.

The bill states: “Any person who submits proof to the Board that the person has been actively engaged as a locksmith in the Commonwealth for at least two consecutive years prior to July 1, 2009, and pays the required fee for the issuance of a license under subsection B shall be licensed without having to satisfy the requirements of subdivision B 3.” Subdivision B 3 is the testing requirement. This grandfather clause clearly gives current locksmiths an advantage in the market. Why?

I would assert that this “gray area” should not be up to the government either; it should be left to the market. I hope we never get to the point that we regulate lawn care. I know that was my only income as a kid, and I would not have been able to afford a licensing fee.

Let the market work.

Anonymous – You make a good point about public saf...

2008-02-19T17:17:33.321-05:00

Anonymous – You make a good point about public safety, but as I stated in relation to Delegate Albo’s statement, make the law about regulating criminals or make it a greater crime from Locksmiths to burglarize. This would be like regulating citizens who own firearms instead of criminals, oh wait, we do that. It would be like regulating kitchen knife owners for the fear that criminals might use them.

Criminals will always obtain contraband. If we try to regulate every industry that might educate someone in the commission of a crime we would regulate all industries. If we must regulate locksmiths, make them get a background check, but don’t make them take a test.

While we appreciate Delegate Albo’s explanation of...

2008-02-19T17:09:25.837-05:00

While we appreciate Delegate Albo’s explanation of the bill it just does not comport with this type of regulation. If it is convicted larcenists and rapists we are worried about becoming locksmiths, then why not propose a law prohibiting convicted felons from becoming locksmiths? How about something like, “No convicted felon may engage in any activity related to the manufacture, replacement, or picking of locks or other security devices.”

This would solve the problem just the same without inhibiting the free market. If this is a public safety issue guised as a regulation, it should be enacted as regulation of felons not of free citizens of this fine Commonwealth.

So lawyers should not be licensed? How about doct...

2008-02-19T15:31:06.093-05:00

So lawyers should not be licensed? How about doctors? Certified public accounts? Each is regulated by semi-governmental agencies. I believe that is because there are offenses which may not rise to the level of criminal or even civil liability but which bring disrepute on the profession. Knowingly giving someone your locksmith tools to steal a car or break into a house would probably give rise to both forms of liability; but how about failing to secure the tools, which leads them to be stolen and used in a crime? Where does duplicating a key engraved "Do Not Duplicate" fall? And isn't it more intrusive for the government to criminalize an otherwise minor offense, rather than merely provide an alternative disciplinary method? Which is better, to fine and jail a locksmith for failing to meet his industry's standard, or to suspend him from locksmithing until he meets it?

The locksmith industry, like the court reporter industry, may want to be self-regulating. A self-regulating group needs a regulatory authority to set standards and administer discipline, and that regulatory authority needs funding. The funding should not come from the General Fund; it should come from locksmiths. But unless the group is voluntary, in which case it is merely advisory and not regulatory, there must be a mechanism to make financial support of the authority and submission to the regulations it promulgates mandatory.

Your point about licensing requirements as an exclusionary obstacle is well-made, but that's what the legislature should be eliciting when it considers the licensing legislation. No court reporters spoke out in opposition to the court reporter bill, as I recall; if a locksmith were to speak out in opposition to this bill, the committee hearing the bill should then weigh the public policy justifying the licensure requirement.

Clearly, there is a line between lawyers and doctors on the one hand and the kid who mows your lawn in the summer on the other hand: we probably do not need Lawn Care License at this point. But where in the vast gray area between the two the line should fall isn't up to me.

Not A.E. Dick Howard,Excellent suggestion. Howeve...

2008-02-19T15:29:29.309-05:00

Not A.E. Dick Howard,

Excellent suggestion.

However, regulation of an industry is not excusable from a conservative standpoint if the industry wants it. Industry’s are free to be self regulating. Customers can choose who they trust and do not. Criminal actions can be prosecuted.

Many industries desire to be regulated to stifle competition. It may be worth a couple hundred dollars in fees to discourage new competition. For this reason conservatives should always question when an industry desires to be regulated by the government. I am interested to hear your thoughts.

Did you ask Delegate Albo whether the bill was int...

2008-02-19T15:27:44.192-05:00

Did you ask Delegate Albo whether the bill was introduced at the request of the locksmith industry? There was a similar bill to license court reporters a couple years ago, and it was introduced at the request of the court reporters.

The reason for that bill was to allow a disciplinary mechanism for court reporters who refused to supply transcripts to attorneys in time to meet filing deadlines for their appeals. A court reporter who failed to transcribe and then provide the transcript in a timely fashion could then have his or her license revoked.

The fees, in that bill, were used exclusively to fund the oversight of the governing body, much as the Virginia State Bar's fees are used to fund the VSB. Those licensing fees, and the court reporter licensing fees, don't go to the General Fund.

It's easy to see that some locksmiths might be concerned about some shady members of their profession--locksmiths who duplicate keys without authorization when they install new locks; locksmiths who lend or lose their tools, which are then used in criminal enterprise; &c. The responsible members of the industry may want, as the court reporters and lawyers have wanted, a disciplinary mechanism.

Perhaps as you go forward and review these bills, you should ask the patrons why they introduced them so that you don't overlook the potentially innocuous explanation.

I'm no fan of government regulation but I have to ...

2008-02-19T13:03:59.195-05:00

I'm no fan of government regulation but I have to say this makes some sense to me.

The idea, I'm pretty sure, is that people can pose as locksmiths and then burgle a home later. This makes that much, much more difficult. In my mind, it fits in with the job of government: to protect citizens.